JPButton » Talking Points – BlueGartr Forums

Talking Points – BlueGartr Forums

JP/EN Discussion / 和英討議 by: Elmer the Pointy

The results are in! Forums users at Blue Gartr submitted a plethora of questions to be answered by Japanese players. The ten that were ultimately chosen ranged from player opinions on JP Only comments, the benefits/drawbacks of mixed servers, and the importance of Skillchains for today’s adventurers. Plus, will the never-ending debate of Adaman Hauberk’s ambiguous hue be put to rest? Read on to find out!

For the first go at this experiment, ten questions were posted to Japanese BBS along with an explanation. There were many willing participants of all opinions, from people who welcomed the chance to play with foreigners, to those who seemed… less than thrilled. I tried to make sure everyone got their say, despite what they thought.

The anonymous nature of their BBS precludes me from posting any of their names or servers — I simply don’t know any of them! They say this is a strict rule so that people will react based on post content, rather than what handle posted it. It’s like Martin Luther King’s dream come to life. This is probably why they never mention any names, especially in the first question, and simply answer yes or no, with a little explanation.

I tried to keep a mix of serious and silly questions, so I hope you are amused by their reaction to some of our NA “in-jokes.” Still, there’s a lot of interesting stuff, and more than a thing or two to learn.

As a final note, occasionally respondents would use some English or fake Auto-Translate. In such cases their English is presented verbatim within

<[ these marks ]> for English and
{ these marks } for Auto-Translate.

Enjoy, and thanks for reading!

Are there any famous (or infamous) foreign players for the Japanese?

There probably are, but without asking people from every server, you can’t really know if they’re famous everywhere.
There aren’t really any “infamous” foreigners. There are, however, several 害人 (foreigners that harass people) and they can make me shy away from NA players. (Elmer Point: 害 gai means damage or harm, while the usual 外 gai means outside.)
There are. They make good <[ MPK ]> targets in Campaign.
Not me, but the people I play with hate all NA players. They put them on the same level as Chinese RMT. Germans, on the other hand, they like.
Any Chinese player, <[ RMTer ]> , but not really any specific person. There are some people we Japanese find kind of weird.
No one I know.
Yes.
I don’t know.
People in <[ HNMLS ]> can be famous, and people with bad manners can also become “famous.”
I don’t know anyone in particular.
I don’t care, so I have no idea.
There are a few <[ famous ]> people where I play, but no one <[ notorious ]>.
There’s a foreigner LS on myself that’s well-known for members that generally harass and disturb people. However, concerning people with a reputation for being good and likable, there isn’t anyone among the foreigners or Japanese.
Yup.
No. Probably the language barrier keeps word of their reputation from really spreading.
I wonder if there are any on my server… but that’s not to say we don’t have our share of malicious foreigners. There’s a lot of “Hey, that guy just MPKd.” ”Oh, it’s because he’s a foreigner.” I get the feeling many foreigners don’t consider how their actions affect the reputation of their friends. (I understand there are many good foreign players too.)
I don’t know.
I can’t give any specific names. There are some, but I usually Blacklist and ignore them.
I don’t know of any foreigners that are well-known across all servers.
Nope. A while back spam shouters were well-known, though. I think a lot of NA got blacklisted for doing that. (Elmer Point: I wonder if he’s thinking of casinos?)
There may be people famous in some place, but I’m not really interested, so who knows.
There’s a HNMLS like that on my server. You’ll hear “not those foreigners again” a lot.
I haven’t heard of any infamous foreigners, but I know this guy who is well-known for always dancing around in a subligar.

Like I mentioned before, Japanese boards usually require that people remain anonymous when posting. This avoids having discussions degenerate into pointless name-calling and accusations. It seems like this mentality carried over in the question itself, and they simply treated it as a “yes” or “no” question, rather than mentioning any specific people. They also focused a little more on the infamous than the positive side of fame. Due to this, the first set of answers were somewhat negative, as people tried to recall experiences that were bad enough to generate infamy.

How do you feel about English-speaking players attempting to speak Japanese. (i.e. Using limited Japanese phrases, saying “w” etc.)

It makes a really, really good impression, more than people who rely on the TAB-key or will only use their own language.
As a JP player, I think it shows they are friendly towards Japan. They are making a strong effort to reach out.
It’s a noble effort, but if they can’t speak well it’s annoying.
It impresses me. I’m happy when they try to improve communication.
It’s an incredibly good feeling. But sometimes seeing a random “w” thrown in there is confusing.
It’s a very good thing, I think. (However, there are many Japanese even that hate stuff like “w” so be careful.)
I think it makes a good impression on a large number of Japanese players. I wonder how it compares with people who speak broken, baby English?
I love it. I also like people who use simple English.
It makes me think, “This guy’s really trying hard,” in a good way.
I feel good. Happy.
I feel a lot better towards someone like that.
There’s a generally distaste for “w,” but people who try to speak Japanese, even poorly, make a good impression.
I don’t think anything in particular when people have a conversation in Japanese. However, I do like when people make the effort to improve communication between Japanese and English speakers.
I really like when people learn some basic, daily phrases.
It makes me feel good. I also try my best to chat in simple English.
It’s a good impression. However, I don’t even like it when Japanese use “w,” so foreigners using it just bugs me. That’s because it isn’t just 笑い (laugh/smile), but also 嘲笑 (scoff/sneer). Usually, this ulterior meaning is the one that transfers over. I can’t speak for everyone, but that’s how I see it.
I find them charming. It’s a nice impression. Still, if I don’t have a grasp on how much Japanese they really know, it can wear me out trying to compensate.
It really makes me feel good. Seeing Japanese stuff like “w” or “^^” makes me feel the same way. Also, I always try my best to talk in English.
I’ve played FFXI for 5 years and I’ve never met a person like that.
Happy, I think. I also try my best to respond in kind.
Happy. They seem to have a good attitude and willingness to compromise. If there Japanese is bad, I don’t laugh or anything. Only a cold-hearted Japanese person would laugh at that.
Even if it’s just a few simple words, I love it. Like <[ Arigatou ]>.
It impresses me more than Japanese people who just brush off trying to communicate with {I don’t speak any English.} or {Please use the Auto-Translate function.}
It really puts me at ease, like I can be more comfortable around this guy.
I’m really moved by people who try their best to speak with roman characters, and it shows a lot of initiative. However, people who use web translators often come out with weird, incomprehensible Japanese, and it would actually be easier to just talk in English. ^^;

There was an overwhelming consensus here for the support of foreigners using Japanese. Save for but a few respondents, practically everyone said they appreciated even the slightest amount of Japanese. This should come as good news for many players, as a simple “yoroshiku” after joining a JP party, or “arigatou” after receiving a Cure seems to break the ice and brighten their spirits. If you want to start off on the right foot, just get a few basic phrases under your belt.

I was also pleased to find their shared hatred of the ever-prevalent “w.” If you can type Japanese kanji, using ‘emi’ in brackets (笑) produces the same effect.

Why is using /check considered rude? For English-speaking players it is a fairly innocuous action.

In Japan, being stared at by other people is rude and ill-mannered, so it must be a cultural difference.
In Japanese, it’s saying you fix a start upon someone, so maybe that nuance doesn’t transfer over. (You can make this invisible through the filters, though.)
The Japanese phrase isn’t so pleasant, and having it on by default sucks.
For me it’s like someone just took it upon themselves to rummage through my stuff.
I think it’s the fact that someone in the middle of town is just staring at you up and down, and closely examining your necklace, rings and everything else, which is creepy. The /check command technically says “stares fixedly.” Japanese people feel it’s a question of manners.
I don’t know about everyone individually, but the Japanese text message is just no good. ”Player stares at you fixedly.”
A lot of people feel the message displayed when /check is used gives an inappropriate impression.
/check itself isn’t so bad, but it’s annoying when people do it over and over!
The message that displays for /check is unpleasant. It’s Square Enix’s fault.
Staring so intently at someone is pretty poor manners. If the message was different, it probably wouldn’t be a problem.
It’s because of Square Enix’s message that it has such a bad reputation.
In my opinion, it’s like some beggar coming up looking for something. Any way you look at it, it’s a bad message. I filter it though, so I don’t really notice. I also heard a rumor that all the constant examining can be a burden on the server.
I don’t care either way. This has been a problem amongst Japanese for a long time. Actually, there are still those who hate it, but the amount that simply don’t care is increasing. Those who can’t stand it claim they don’t like being aware that people are looking at them. Recently, most people will just tell them to ignore it and put on the chat filter.
Me and my friends don’t care and just use it whenever. Many people think it’s selfish to examine someone and then ask them for help right after.
The Japanese translation says “stares fixedly,” so it’s a bad feeling, but if it was like “Player A looks at Player B” or something it wouldn’t be an issue at all.
“Player A stares fixedly at Player B” is bad wording in Japanese. That fixedness just implies he’s intently looking for something. It’s the same reason Japanese react negatively to appearing on <[ FFXIAH ]>. It’s like observing an individual’s actions. The “street view” service <[ Google ]> recently started in Japan also caused an uproar.
It’s a cultural difference. Japan is concerned with shame, while Europe and America focus on crime and sin. Japanese are very concerned about how people see them. Also, the text displayed for <[ /check ]> is bad. It’s like stalker-ish. Doing it once can be bad, but 4 or 5 times is like harassment.
In Japan, it’s just rude to stare with no concern others. I think that’s the problem with the message that is displayed.
Square Enix’s emote has a bad Japanese translation I think. It feels something like <[ You sneakily peep behavior ]>.
Looking in a bazaar or just glancing at equipment is no big deal. However, people who use it just to badmouth you, or bug you to trade with them, or other such nonsense, make it feel like harassment.
In Japanese, it expresses rudeness. Some people consider repeated /checking to be <[ Harassment ]>.
I personally don’t find it to be rude, so I can’t really say. Still, I know there are a lot of people who don’t like it, so I never /check without saying something first.
It implies that someone is glaring at you, so many people don’t like the meaning. If you ask beforehand to view someone’s equipment, they probably won’t say no.

Basically, everyone agreed one main points: It’s poor manners because the message Square Enix chose makes it come across as such. In some cases, I still think people take it too seriously, and there were a few respondents who shared that sentiment. Asking each and every person for /check permission is pretty ridiculous, but extending that courtesy to party/alliance members isn’t so bad. It seems like most Japanese people have gotten over it though, and their answers here are more explanations rather than their personal excuses.

Square Enix has mentioned many times that they are proud of their servers being unique, in the sense that many people from around the world are on the same server, instead of split up by region, and can communicate with the Auto-Translate feature.
Do you feel that this was a success or a failure? Do you think that mixing regions on each server was a failure? If you could choose, would you choose a JP only server?

Everyone probably has a different opinion on this, so I don’t know what to say. Personally, I would have been happier if they prepared both mixed servers and regional servers.
Square Enix is alone in being proud of this. Many Japanese would select a JP server if they could, I think.
It’s clearly a huge failure. I still want to use a segregated server. We’re not <[ NPC ]>s here for your assistance.
I think it was just for Square Enix’s self-satisfaction.
I think Vana’diel was ruined when foreign players came. Mixing servers was probably Square Enix’s biggest failure. The Auto-Translate function is incomplete, and the necessary phrases we petition for never get added. If there were region-specific servers, I would no doubt choose a Japanese-only server.
It was both a success and a failure probably. The Auto-Translate is experimental, but it has way too few phrases. Personally, I would probably want to switch if a Japanese-only server were available.
It’s not that the JP-only era was free from problems, but foreign players made things comparatively much more difficult with because it was so hard to understand each other. Many people simply gave up trying. For me, being on a mixed server isn’t a problem though.
I wanted them to make Japanese servers, English servers and mixed servers.
I think it was an interesting experiment. I don’t have the chance to use English day-to-day, so it helps me study. I like talking to different people with different viewpoints.
If possible, they should make it so you can choose between, Japanese, mixed, and US/EU servers!
If you’re good at English it’s all right, but many people would select a JP server because it’s easier. I think there are many players who want to avoid getting laughed at for bad grammar and such.
I’ve met some good people, but overall I think it failed. I would mainly like a Japanese-only server.
Except for early/late login times, I never really play with NA parties. The language barrier is just too great. I don’t mind leaving friends behind, so I would like a Japanese-only server. Mixing all these nationalities seems like a good idea, but they were too idealistic, I think.
If it’s either “success” or “failure,” I’d have to say failure. However, that’s not to say many people of different languages playing together is a failure, but that Square Enix dropped the ball here. I don’t mind mixed servers.
I can’t really say. We all have different values and views, and there are fun things and unpleasant things about mixed servers.
I’ve been playing since the service launched, and at that time, Square Enix never said they were going to begin service for NA players. It would have been different it they mentioned that from the beginning. If they made JP servers, even now, I would want to move. Even if it was expensive.
With all the people that seem to be dissatisfied, I’d say it was a failure. However, I don’t agree with people that say, “Oh, if foreigners weren’t here, things would be great,” because then you have those Chinese RMT. Blaming foreigners is being unreasonable.
It depends on the person. Personally, I would like separate servers. I think the consensus is there should be Japanese, mixed and English servers.
I think it would have been better if people could choose to play with other countries or with just people from their own. I’d choose a mixed server.
I think Japanese are pretty narrow-minded. In contrast, NA are a little out of control. As an experiment, it’s been pretty interesting. The end result wasn’t as good, I think.
There’s a lot of dissatisfaction currently. Still, in the interest of being able to understand everyone and get things done easier, I’d choose a Japanese-only server.
Square Enix just did this to boost their reputation. Many Japanese see it as a failure. Actually, once the NA version went on sale, there was an explosion of Japanese player cancellations. If I could have selected a Japanese-only server from the beginning, I would have done so.
I think playing on a mixed server has been an interesting experience for me, but I would still select a Japanese server if I could.
It’s a great thing for people who want to learn other languages or experience other cultures. For me, I’d choose a Japanese-only server if I could.
I can definitely tell you it was a failure. After foreigners came in, all the good people quit. Many bad habits pervaded the Japanese community. Still, I think it would have degenerated like this either way. It’s a little late to make language-specific servers now, but I would go to Japanese-only server.
I’m not bothered by being on a server mixed with foreigners. That’s because I like learning about all the cultural differences. Also, it helps to have a full population no matter what time you log on.

Ouch. This reminds of that joke about pet lovers. ”Oh, your cat loves you? OK, open the door to your apartment and see what happens.”

“Oh, you have Japanese friends? Open a JP-only server and see what happens.” And off rush 99% of the Japanese population. Now, it looks pretty bad, but let’s consider some things. Foreigners didn’t necessarily invent bad behavior, but thousands of English-speaking players flooding into a Japanese game kind of screwed up the dynamic. It was interesting to note that apparently Square Enix did not initially alert people of this beforehand. While there are some particularly cranky respondents, I get the feeling that the language barrier bothers Japanese players more than the foreigners themselves.

When I was in middle school, I had to choose a new language for the first time: French or Spanish. I chose French to stick with my girlfriend, but didn’t really care one bit for French. Now, if there was anything more powerful than a 486 back then, I might have enjoyed an online game after school. If I had the choice to just sit back and play in English, or be surrounded by Frenchmen babbling in the confounding language I just suffered through in school, I’d think, “Screw that, EN ONLY!” (No offense to Frenchies, just projecting a 12 year old mentality here).

Anyway, just trying to say the reasoning for their frustration may be more based on the language than on the actions of foreign players. You can read more about it below in the JP Only question, where I’m sure I’ll have to play apologist again.

Have you learned anything about the NA culture that you didn’t know before? Perhaps a polite/impolite gesture/phrase that seemed innocent to you? (e.g. we see /check as innocent, and JP find it rude)

Personally, I’ve done foreign study and home-stays, so I knew a lot going in. Recently, there’s been a lot of foreign students and workers coming into the country, so I think cultural awareness is really growing.
After the NA players came in, one weird thing that changed was no more lotting.
When I played Ultima Online on an NA server, I didn’t hate communicating with NA players.
Nothing culturally, but I thinking my basic English skills have really improved.
NA don’t act like gentlemen. They are selfish, rude and perverts. I have a female character and have had to call GMs about sexual harassment many times. They demand PLs and Raises and Teleports, and if you don’t answer they start cursing you out. They irresponsibly camp on top of other parties. Also, people who speak English but put up the “J” tag disgust me.
When asking someone for something, Japanese try to consider the other person’s situation, while NA players think more of there own needs. Also, if they get turned down, they get very persistent and demanding.
They build parties differently than I’d expect.
I have many English-speaking friends, so I think it’s more of a person-by-person problem. I don’t like foreigners that are selfish, and it’s rude to simply thrust your requests upon someone without prefacing them politely.
The way they switch people in and out of parties. (Disbanding quickly is so annoying). Also, the lot rules.
I’ve only just become familiar with NA through FFXI, so I can’t answer.
I don’t know. I would like to know what they find rude.
I was surprised at all the begging.
The time difference. Also I got good at making basic English conversation.
Personally, I’ve had fun learning stuff like “Welcome back” is <[ Welcome back ]> and “thank you,” which has improved my English. Not to mention a fair amount of slang…
I had never seen English chat, so it was good to see that.
There seems to be many people who think they can get anything with money. For example, I was in Windurst and I told this guy my Home Point was somewhere else, so I couldn’t teleport him. He offered money, but I refused, and he got really persistent. He told me I should just change my Home Point. What nerve…
There’s no equivalent to “yoroshiku onegaishimasu” to greet someone at the beginning of a party! I was also surprised when seeing <[ wb ]> and then <[ ty ]>. So <[ ty ]> is supposed to express “Thank you for waiting for me” in that case?
I learned some English shorthand, like <[ wb ]> and <[ r u **? ]>. Also some culture. Unfortunately, I ended up with more of a negative image than a positive one.
There are parties when people afk for long periods of time, members switch in and out constantly, or perhaps the party just disbands before they assemble.
Many things, but nothing really useful outside of the game. If anything, I understand just how big a wall there is between our different languages and cultures.
Chat abbreviations.
I never knew about those sideways emoticons. The first time I saw it, I thought it was a typo.
I get the feeling that Japanese players go for long parties that steadily build experience points, while <[ NA ]> parties focus on getting the most experience points out of a single battle, no matter how long it takes.

Some more… frank responses, especially that one near the top that makes me wonder if FFXIFlux is studying abroad right now. The respondent that mentioned the lack of proper party greetings made an interesting point though. In Japanese, there are basic phrases that go before and after requests and activities. In some cases we have equivalents, like “Excuse me, but” or “Sorry to bother you.” In others, we don’t. We could say, “Welcome to the party!” but most people just give a “hey” or “sup” when adding new members.

In the same vein, when English-speaking shout, it’s usually direct and to the point. Japanese always apologize for their shout, sometimes before and after. Neither way is necessarily “wrong,” but from each side, the other side’s way can appear wrong.

Do you ever utilize English websites such as BlueGartr, FFXIAH, etc for foreigner research and opinions? Do the Japanese have a large end-game community forum, similar to foreign players using BlueGartr?

I don’t really go to any foreign sites. I think there may be some high-level forums.
I don’t use any foreign sites, personally. If there are any high-level boards… I don’t know them.
I get enough from Japanese boards, so I don’t use foreign ones. We have some boards devoted to battle strategies.
I’ve looked at <[ FFXIAH ]> several times, but basically I don’t use any.
I don’t really view any foreign sites, but now that you mention it, isn’t <[ FFXIAH ]> a Japanese site? We do have specific boards for high-level stuff, jobs and battle strategies.
I’ve looked at <[ FFXIAH ]>. As for our forums, we don’t have ones aimed at high-level players so much as ones that only high-level players still post on.
I don’t. I get everything I need already.
I use <[ FFXIAH ]>. Besides that, I’ve never been shown another place to visit.
I’m pretty much fine with just Japanese boards. As for high-level sites… I would say use either here or 2chan’s NetGames board.
I sometimes use <[ FFXIAH ]>.
I don’t know English, so I don’t use any. We have them here too in Japan.
No, I get all the info I want to know from Japanese sites. For high-level forums, there is NetGames or here.
<[ FFXIAH ]> (I don’t use it now) <[ FFxiclopedia ]>. Like me, many Japanese used to use <[ FFXIAH ]>, but with the recent rise in hacking, they have mostly stopped. I use <[ FFxiclopedia ]> a lot, but I don’t know of any other Japanese who do. I use it because 1) It has a lot more detailed information than Japanese sites, 2) It’s more objective than Japanese sites. I don’t know about high-level boards, but there are some forums that discuss <[ FF11 ]> battle strategies.
With all the account hacking going on, I have no interest in viewing foreign sites.
Nope, I have no idea what <[ BlueGartr ]> is.
I’ve been using <[ FFXIAH ]> since back when they only displayed in English. Many Japanese felt it was useful, but some were upset with its privacy violations. When it started displaying Japanese, everyone was extremely grateful. It was such a nice thing for the site to do. Still, there are some who still demand the site be shut down because you can sneak a peek at the activities of others. We don’t have high-level sites, but rather sites for specific subjects regarding the game.
I use <[ FFXIAH ]> a lot. I don’t know about any other sites besides that one. For a high-level site, do you mean one with lots of activity, or one that deals with hunting HNM? For the former, check out NetGames I guess… the latter would be here.
Previously, I used <[ FFXIAH ]>. Now, because of all the hacking, I don’t anymore. There are boards for each server, but I think NetGames functions as a high-level forum.
Yes, there are.
<[ FFXIAH ]>. After the account hacking problem I stopped using it.
Nope, because I don’t understand English.
I don’t use any. I just use here and whatever other sites people recommend to me.
I used <[ FFXIAH ]> for a period of time, but recently I don’t. I don’t know of any others.
I don’t. I’m satisfied with what I use now.
I use the <[ AH ]>, but community sites are too hard to read, so I don’t use those.

I liked this question because I didn’t have to feel horrible after reading the answers. It seems like FFXIAH is a clear favorite, most likely for the sheer utility of the site. Having the whole database in Japanese now doesn’t hurt either. What does hurt though, apparently, is the hacking issue. It was pretty clear that account hacking has caused a scare, and any unfamiliar sites have been scratched off the Japanese favorite lists.

Is the Adaman Hauberk blue or purple? This debate has raged across NA forums since the dawn of time.

I don’t think there’s anything to debate here, but… I guess it depends on how you look at it and if you have colorblindness or not.
In my eyes, it looks to be ultramarine. However, everyone could have their own opinion so it’s pointless to debate.
What color? Looks blue to me…
It depends on the specific hue one sees, but I think it’s blue.
Grey. Blue is like Noble’s Tunic. Purple is like Dragoon AF. I only see grey for Adaman Hauberk.
Ultramarine.
I can see why some would say purple, but really, Adaman Hauberk is blue. lol
I see a strong blue color.
It looks blue.
Dark blue or blue. There’s no purple there.
I think it’s a navy blue.
It’s hard to express its exact color, but if it’s between blue and purple, I say blue. Personally, I would specify it as ultramarine.
I think it’s ultramarine. <[ Ultramarine ]>.
I can’t definitively say its color since it changes based on the color settings of your T.V., but I would go with ultramarine.
Purple.
Navy blue (some bluish color). I wouldn’t think for a second that it’s purple.
In Japan there’s no such debate about the color of Adaman Hauberk, so I’d guess it’s some sort of joke. It’s funny the things foreigners focus on (meaning I’m really interested in it). I don’t know about them, but most Japanese would classify Adaman Hauberk as being blue. Still, depending on the lighting, the color can subtly change so it’s tough to define it with a single word. Looking at a picture of Adaman Hauberk, I can see how some debate would stem from such a color. lol
I think it’s ultramarine.
Purple.
A strong blue. I figure individual differences like monitor settings, room lighting and such started this nonsense. It’s the color of Adaman, isn’t it?
Blue. To be more specific, ultramarine. It has a little purple mixed in, but really is a deep, ocean blue. I’ve never seen this discussed amongst Japanese. It can depend on the person, but I doubt there are many Japanese who would say its purple.
Ultramarine. It’s a type of blue.
I’d have to say it’s a bluish-purple. Between blue or purple, I think it’s closer to blue.
If it’s blue or purple, then I say bluish-purple. A blue with some purple in it.
Indigo. It looks like indigo-colored dye, and I think that color describes this perfectly.

18 blues, (with 8 specifically for ultramarine), 2 purples, 2 on the fence, an indigo, and 1… grey? You know, I always agreed with that one guy who pointed out that Adaman Hauberk is probably the color of Adaman — blue! Still, it’s kind of a joke question, and something that was fun to share with them. When you can share in the ridiculousness of a debate like this, it gives you something to laugh at together. I wonder how they feel about Warcry merits…

What is your main reason behind having “JP Only” or “English No Thanks” in your search comment? Is it because you prefer to speak in Japanese, or is it a problem with the way foreigners act?

I want to speak in Japanese… I want to play with Japanese players… I don’t like their play style… etc etc, there can be a bunch of reasons.
I want to play in a language I can understand. Other reasons include not being able to get my feelings across, not being familiar with their battle strategies, and the general disarray the language gap causes.
Because I don’t like foreigners. They <[ AFK ]>, they logout on a whim, and they don’t listen to battle advice.
It depends on the person, but it’s mostly due to the following reasons: Inability to communicate battle plans or having a previous bad experience in a party with foreigners.
Many people won’t join a party with foreigners because they won’t understand the specifics of where to camp and how to perform within the party. Japanese are required to learn English, and many of them can speak enough to accomplish this, but they log in to relax and have fun, not struggle with a language they’re no good at. Most Japanese understand that the TAB-key phrase {I don’t speak any English.} really means, “I speak English, but I can’t get all the little details and nuances, so I won’t speak it.” Also, when service began, people joined this <[ MMO ]> under the impression it would be Japanese-only. So when Square Enix added in English users and blindsided us with English and the TAB-key… a lot of people strongly felt they had been tricked. I don’t like being the only one not able to express myself in a party that doesn’t speak Japanese.
The biggest reason for me is not being able to alert people in case of an emergency. In case of a link, there’s no way to quickly say, “RDM sleep that mob and let’s take down this one first.”
If you’re asking for a reason, it’s because I don’t like the way foreigners act.
There’s a variety of reasons, like not knowing the language, or having had a bad experience.
In my case, it’s because I want to speak in Japanese.
Like most people have said, it’s either “I can’t understand details,” or “I had a bad experience.” For me, it’s the latter. Japanese might not understand English fully, but we can tell when people throw around racist and sexist talk.
English is complex. I understand it, but there’s so much I can’t say. I want to have smooth communication with my party, but I also want to become friendlier with foreign players.
I think more than in the interest of mutual understanding, there are many Japanese who have had bad experiences with mean players. Besides that, two big reasons are probably: “I’m playing to have fun, not struggle,” and “I want to get the most out of my monthly fee.”
There’s a difference in party structure and flow. Japanese like to go for 3 or more hours, while <[ NA ]> parties often break quickly. When discussing camp, or how to deal with links in emergency situations, having two different languages just makes things difficult. Although some people genuinely can’t understand English, I think others use it as an excuse to avoid troubling situations.
The cultural and language differences are huge. English ability is not something the Japanese can be proud of. Regarding the language wall, as a nation of people who strive for perfection, there’s a feeling of “If I can’t say it perfectly, I won’t say it,” which I think is dumb. As for the cultural wall, I think the biggest issue is play style. You often have people call replacements and leave, using a “revolver style” (a term I just made up myself) party play, which Japanese feel is disrespectful to other party members. Also, there are instances where the replacement arrives only to have the party disband without killing a single monster. This just leaves a bad impression of foreigner parties. Actually, there are quite a few Japanese who like the “revolver style” parties. However, in Japanese parties they very rarely ever use it.
I’ve come to dislike foreigners based on the people I’ve met. It’s difficult to have a conversation, parties aren’t stable… but most others just simply don’t understand enough English.
I like when <[ NA ]> try to chat a little in Japanese, but I think the vast majority only use English. They can also be very self-centered, and I don’t like that.
I don’t have the language ability to communicate well, and the cultural differences between foreigners, who act on their personal whims, and Japanese, who are considerate for their fellow players, just bugs me and makes me not want to join any <[ NA ]> parties! That’s what I’m expressing with JP only.
In my case, it’s 70% wanting to be able to talk, and 30% bad past experiences that make me put up JP only. It’s tough to communicate detailed information or coordinate during emergencies. There’s also the cultural differences, where foreigners conduct themselves in ways that Japanese people do not like. As a personal example, I hate when foreigners camp on top of me. Japanese players search and ask first, but it seems many foreigners just plop down on top of you and try to break up your party.
I think it’s because of the communication issue. Our languages and ways of thinking are different, and that’s hard to reconcile.
If you want to know, many Japanese don’t use <[ JP Only ]> to separate the races. I think it’s like how you find it difficult to understand why we don’t like <[ /check ]>. I’ll let other people elaborate more on this.
There’s one of two reasons. They are either prejudiced, or they don’t want to deal with the aggravation. For me, when doing an important mission or something, I try to avoid foreigner parties. Often times we all just end up leveling down.
I don’t like the way foreigners act. Japanese see many English-speakers as selfish and rude. Of course, this is because our cultures and ways of thinking are different. So instead of getting into quarrels, I just avoid the situation altogether.
There’s a strong majority that just want to speak in Japanese.
There’s many reasons that I think stem from Japanese players and foreign players having different values and play styles. There’s also people who don’t want to join based on a bad experience they had.
It’s self-defense. The best tank I ever partied with was a foreigner. Also, I speak pretty good English. But if I’m doing something where the stakes are high, I’ll put up <[ JP only ]>.
I don’t like it when I can’t communicate effectively. There are many Japanese who can have an English conversation, but just can’t keep up with all the reading and writing. I think this is the fault of the Japanese education system, and not <[ NA ]> players. In level-up parties, I can usually work well with foreigners. If I’m doing a <[ BC ]> or a mission, it’s just too hard to communicate all the details, and I’d rather party with Japanese players.

I thought this section would come out much worse. There were a few “gaijin-haters” snuck in there, but overall it seems people would rather just play the game than run laps to the dictionary. Like my example before, I can certainly see why people would want to simply play in their own language.

Another interesting thing that came up again was that Square Enix didn’t initially tell people about its plans for an NA release. I started on Gilgamesh back in January 2005, and the server gradually became the de facto home for French players. They didn’t exactly receive a warm welcome when NA players caught on to that. I wonder how this survey would look if SE provided EN, JP and mixed servers. I wonder if a question about JP Only would even exist…

They really seem to harp on us for rudeness, and while there certainly are a fair amount of NA/EU players that need their monitors to explode in their faces, I think they are being a little harsh. I’ve been in Japan a long time, and there are some rude-ass people here. You can see Japanese all the time being rude to each other. I think it’s just that this concept of politeness is just hammered in from an early age. Use this word for someone better than you, use that word for someone worse than you… say please, thank you, bow this many degrees downward… In America we have a much more subjective idea of what’s “polite” that varies based on situation. Japanese have a much more collectively defined idea of politeness, so if something doesn’t match, it’s considered rude.

Do JP players still use Skillchain+Magic Burst in their parties or do they TP burn like most NA/EU players do? Do you miss the SC/MB days?

When discussing the battle plan, camp, enemy type/strength and such go into whether we use SC/MB or not.
Battle tactics can change based on level and enemy, but I don’t so much Magic Bursting recently.
<[ MB ]> has gone out of use in Japan too, but it seems like <[ NA ]> players have a lot of trigger-happy Black Mages.
It’s decided based on party makeup and the enemy. There are times where you use Magic Bursts and times when you don’t.
Skillchain and <[ MB ]> are almost no used at all anymore, but there are some Samurai that are skilled enough to make them without it having to be planned out.
My BLM is only 40, so I don’t <[ MB ]>, but sometimes people just Skillchain on a whim. For <[ HNM ]> level monsters they are used more often… or should be.
I haven’t entered a level-up <[ PT ]> in almost 2 years, but I love skillchain and <[ MB ]>. The current trend of play is kind of sad.
<[ MB ]> and skillchains have gone out of style, but there are still some camps where BLM <[ MB ]> is pretty strong.
Nowadays, Black Mages normally don’t even get invited to parties. People just make Black Mage-only parties.
They’re not really done in level-up parties or merit parties. It really depends on the content, BCNM, and such.
Skillchains and <[ MB ]> are pretty old-fashioned, I’d say. Personally, I’d like to see <[ MB ]> have meaning once again.
If there’s a Black Mage in the <[ PT ]>, I will make it so they can <[ MB ]>. It helps the party work together as a machine.
It’s used on certain enemies. For example, on a powerful <[ NM ]> or some <[ HNM ]>s. In general, level-up parties don’t utilize them.
Only in special situations, or certain <[ BC ]>s or <[ NM ]>s, or BLM-only / SMN-only level-up parties. In general, it’s not used. Most parties just ad-lib skillchains as they go along rather than set them up.
There are times when people <[ MB ]> off of people who just Skillchain on the fly. Besides that, they are barely used.
Even in Japan, Skillchain and <[ MB ]> parties have gone out of style. I’d say 95% of parties don’t decide on a Skillchain before starting. The other 5% are low-level parties using <[ Viper Bite or Fast Blade ]>.
There are times when they are used depending on level and the enemy, but it’s nothing like the old days. Thinking back, people used to use them all the time. There’s a fair amount of people who miss that era.
Outside of parties with friends, I barely ever use them. Nobody really prepares Skillchains. Personally, I miss the days when people would Skillchain and <[ MB ]>.
This is just me talking, but I absolutely love <[ MB ]>. I think after Aht Urghan, burn parties became all the rage, and FFXI became pretty boring.
Nostalgic people still want to do them. I think they’re fun to set up. lol
I think people who use Skillchains and <[ MB ]> make good parties. It’s fun! I make burn parties too.
I think most people just ad-lib Skillchains and <[ MB ]> now. If there’s a SAM or DRK people do them sometimes. I was in a party as WHM the other day, and I got to <[ MB ]> Holy off Light Skillchains. That made me really happy. lol
I was feeling nostalgic, and since I was leader, I had my party set up a Skillchain and <[ MB ]>. Everyone was pretty pleased with the results. Still, this way of thinking is almost tantamount to heresy nowadays.
Getting the timing down for Skillchains and <[ MB ]> just isn’t worth it anymore. That, and there are so many BLM parties.

This pretty much mirrors how we feel. Skillchains and Magic Bursts just aren’t efficient enough to bother with, but somewhere, deep down, we wish they were. I mean, how cool is it to set up a chain of special attacks that culminates in a bonus effect that opens the door for an assault of magic? Of course, doing it 50 thousand times as you grind off crabs sort of dulls that effect.

Still, it was a unique part of Final Fantasy XI, and added to the party dynamic. Now, the most efficient way to party is to just deck yourself off and beat the holy hell out of the enemy until the pixels physically crumble from the punishment. It feels like the Final Fantasy series has always suffered from this issue. I can’t remember a single one where you couldn’t just barrel through enemies with beefy bruisers, forgoing MP management and the hassle of spells. I always conserved magic for boss fights, and it sounds like that’s the general plan in FFXI as well.

Do you wear certain earrings or rings in certain slots? For example, Suppanomimi on ear 1, CoP ring on ring 2.

I don’t really understand this question, but if you’re talking about rare and powerful equipment, all I can say is that it’s up to the individual where they want to put it.
Lots of people are concerned with what equipment they have, but I don’t think anyone cares where they wear it.
I pay no attention to that.
I don’t think there’s really anyone who pays attention to what slot they use. I know I don’t.
Choosing which earrings or rings to wear is important, with the limited number of slots. Choosing which slot to put them in is something I don’t think about.
My equipment depends on my level and goals. I have battle gear and town gear.
So I guess this question is asking if we are concerned about which of the two slots we put equipment in? I put mission rewards in the left slot (I guess that’s <[ Ear 1 & Ring 1 ]>?).
I don’t know the point of this question, but I’m sure there are some who think about this stuff, but really it’s up to them where they want to put it.
I don’t.
I make sure to keep the slot consistent throughout my gear-swap macros, but I don’t pick either slot in particular.
I basically just fill in every slot when I equip myself. I don’t have any special order.
There doesn’t seem to be any reason to do that. Still, if the question includes other items with special meaning, I do have a cherished Longsword +1. It’s my favorite sword that I’ve had for years, and I keep it equipped on my mannequin.
I think the majority of players don’t pay attention to this, but I totally do. Specifically, this is what I always put on: Ear1: Antivenom Earring, Abyssal Earring, Singing Earring, Fowling Earring; Ear2: Assault Earring, Moldavite Earring, Wind Earring; Ring1: Moliones’s Ring, Jelly Ring; Ring2: Woodsman Ring, Triumph Ring.
Equipment keeps changing as you level, so I think a lot of people don’t really notice these things. But, if people stopped to think about it, they might be like, “Hey, why did I put this ring on the left and this earring on the right?”
I don’t think about it.
I’ve never thought about this. Since this was chosen as one of 10 questions, are you saying this is something of great importance to <[ NA ]> players? If Japanese players were asking foreigners questions, this would absolutely not be one of them.
Hmm, sounds like the kind of thing you do with an engagement ring. In that case, I don’t think anyone really pays attention to this. People just put on what is necessary for their level.
I don’t think about it.
No.
I do. Why do you ask?
In town I often wear equipment my friend has inscribed, but I don’t put it in any particular slot.
In my case, I do put earrings in certain slots depending on the job for my macros. But there probably aren’t many people who do this.
Sometimes things I usually put in the right slot just looks weird in the left slot. Still, I never really took the time to choose one or the other from the beginning.
I don’t have a special order. I just make sure all my macros keep things in the same slots. ^_^;

I kind of expected this, but Japanese take these joke questions pretty seriously. Being the first time we’ve done this though, it seems natural it would come across that way. It was nice to see a bunch of people caught on though, especially that one OCD case.

Additional Comments

For a first go at this, I think it went pretty well. Despite some of the negative sentiment, there was a very positive reaction for the experiment itself. Plus, the variety of opinions shows we are getting the full deal, and not just some sugar-coated answers from a small group of people. It’s strange how annoyed they can appear to be, yet be so eager to bridge the gap at the same time. Besides the obvious grouches, most posters were very receptive and eager to participate. I only wish I had the time to include more answers.

Here is some extra material that wasn’t part of any particular answer. Some people requested that these thought were added, and they are just general concerns or after-thoughts various posters had.

Melees, please come to merit parties as sub-NIN, not sub-SAM. This is something I really want <[ NA ]> to understand. It makes me feel bad for <[ NA ]> healers. Using sub-NIN will make you super efficient. Your death-rate will go way down. Using Utsusemi will save your healers a lot of <[ MP ]>. Japanese don’t see <[ MP ]> as something that should be sacrificed to make you stronger.
Many Japanese are poor at English conversation not because they can’t make sentences, but because they don’t know what to say to express themselves. If someone badmouths them in a party, they know they have no way to respond. Then they just get more frustrated, and start to dislike foreign players altogether.
<[ BTW ]>, most Japanese people know English to understand basic <[ PT ]> chat, and they can tell when people are badmouthing them or using sexual language, so people should really stop that. lol Many people just don’t have enough confidence in their spelling or grammar to say anything.
This is my opinion on <[ NAHNMLS ]>: First, many <[ NA ]> players are foul-mouthed and often selfish and sarcastic (<[ so mean ]>). However, there are good people that don’t bully others. After <[ NA ]> players joined the game, <[ RMT ]> activity really took off, I think. Things like using other people’s accounts, having <[ windower ]> and <[ DualBox ]>ing are basically a given, and I think it shows a lack of morals. As for <[ BG ]> as a <[ forum ]>, I think they are too concerned with having their character names in their <[ post ]>, whereas will always post <[ /anon or no name ]>. If you display names, it just degenerates into personal attacks.
The day service began for foreigners, Sarutabaruta was just littered with corpses. I would throw a Cure and say something nice, like, “You can do it!” and they would respond with foul language like <[ "You JAP?!" ]> or <[ fuck ]> or <[ monkey ]> and such. After that, I just stopped giving out Cures and sort of avoided foreigners. I always wanted to know why North American players would act it such a way. Honestly, people who study a little Japanese to speak with us are the most popular.

After collecting a lot of answers, I did step up to the plate to defend us foreigners. While some of the questions invited negativity, I thought they were being somewhat unfair. It is the Internet, and anonymous no less, so you can’t really judge how even the rudest of respondents carry themselves in-game.

I explained to them that a lot of concerns they had were ones we hold ourselves. Nobody likes people that camp on top of other parties. Stealing, drama and personal feuds are a constant problem. Still, there’s a lot of adventurers that play the game, have fun, and don’t bother other people, and it’s those adventurers that genuinely want to know more about those they share their game with.

I think past the bad experiences, and apparently poor handling of integration, Japanese people feel the same way. I mean, everyone would rather reach an understanding with their fellow players rather than be constantly at odds with them, right? Well, here are some more comments they made afterwards.

I don’t hate <[ NA ]>, there are lots of interesting people among them. I just hate English.
Japanese people don’t just hate <[ NA ]> players, they dislike <[ NA ]> players with poor manners. Also, Japanese people hate when people throw around the word JAP, even if it’s not used maliciously.
Thanks for your hard work. I’m on a server with a high population of foreigners. I’m not that good, but I like to translate in mixed parties of English or French players. I really hope this survey fosters some understand between good foreign players and Japanese. I think there are many cases where we really do dislike the same kinds of inappropriate conduct. For example, I hate when people just up and call a replacement for themselves without saying anything. They don’t consider the time difference, and that maybe people want to disband, disappointing the replacement. Also, sometimes they’ll do stuff like a WHM will call a RNG for their replacement. Since we can’t split up the servers now, I think the best thing to do is reach understanding one voice at a time. I really respect what the OP is doing here. Don’t wear yourself out.
I don’t hate all foreigners. I think lots of people just suck at English and refuse to respond. Next time, I’d like to know what courtesy we could extend to <[ NA ]> to make them happy.
I think this is an interesting experiment, so keep up the good work. If you can, I want to know their reaction.

So if you call them on their prejudice, Japanese will be nice. No, wait… we’re all good people on the inside. Yeah, that’s a better lesson. Seriously though, there were lots of other little, tiny comments like “Ooh, sounds fun!” or “I want to try this!” and so on. There literally wasn’t a single post in opposition of this, which says something, I guess.

I had a lot of fun doing this, and translating all these opinions was just loads of fun, not to mention enlightening, due to their content. I would love the chance to try this again with different questions and different communities. I hope you enjoyed reading this, and that you learned something new in the process. Feel free to post any questions/comments here or send me a mail at elmer@jpbutton.com

Thanks to everyone who submitted questions and supported me during this trial run!

Edit: I actually just noticed this post after completed this entire thread. It was put up only minutes before I wrapped up work on the survey. Sometimes I read it and get confused, but sometimes I read it and feel it exemplifies what this survey has tried to accomplish. This poster did his best to express his opinion in both Japanese and English, and it was one that tried to objectively view both sides of the issue, and logically explain why some of these problems between us exist.

I’ll post the comment here in its entirety. This was not translated by me, but is the poster’s own words.

これは、私の考えだけど…
日本人は、自分がガマンしてでも、集団からはみださないようにする。
他人にイヤな思いをさせないことを、すごく大事にする。
だから…楽しむのがすごくへた。自己主張がとてもへた。
そして、集団の利益を無視する人がきらい。
one for allが大好きだけど、all for one(me)がきらい。

NAは自己主張が上手。
たぶん、NAは「イヤならことわればいい」と思ってJPに色々言うんだろう。
でもほとんどのJPにとって「イヤだ」という理由で「ことわる」のは
自分勝手なことに思えて、特別に理由が無いと、ことわりにくい。
だから、NAに話かけられると、それだけでイヤな人が多いんだ。
「何をたのまれるんだろう」って不安だから。

This is just my opinion…
Most of Japanese adapt themselves to mass, even if they are not happy to do so,
and consider it as a virtue.
It is really important for them not to make somebody unpleasant.
So… Japanese are easy to miss to make themselves happy.
They have very poor means for self-assertiveness.
And, they hate who doesn’t adopt oneself to mass.
Japanese loves “One for all” but hates “All for one(me)”

Most of NAs are very self-assertive.
May be, they think JP are also self-assertive same as them,
and may believe JP can say “No” if they don’t want.
But most of Japanese feels it is an offense to say “No” without specific(physical) reason.
They feel it is selfish behavior to say “I don’t like to do it”.
It is one of the reason that they are stressed when they got tell from NA.
They worry to be demanded.

上手い英語じゃないかもだけど、まあ気持ちが伝われば…。ハハハ…。

※この記事はElmer the Pointyの提供でお送りしました。

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Comments

Comment from Jubi
Time September 1, 2008 at 6:44 am

Thanks so much for your hard work, this was a wonderful idea. Personally, I’m a NA player that has had pretty much zero trouble with JP players after 3 years. The worst I’ve gotten was a single “JP ONLY” response to a party invite. Everything else has been positive: random friendly JPs offering to help me get Kazham airship keys or RSE chest keys, a few very efficient parties where I was the only non-JP, commiserating in /tell with the only JP player in a NA party about about how crappy the leader was, random friendly JP party members who made an effort at friendly conversation, and even one kind and very patient JP player who escorted me the long way to a ToAU camp that I didn’t have the staging point for (it turned into quite an ordeal, and she may have been cussing me out IRL, but she was very patient with me in-game). So much of what I see seems to be xenophobia, pure and simple. In my *general* experience, if you are polite to them, they are polite in return.

One of the biggest problems I see is lack of communication, both NA to NA and NA to JP. For example, it’s incredibly irritating to be invited to an incomplete party and then have the leader not say anything for 10 mins, 15 mins, 20 mins… logically, he/she should be looking for party members, but for all I know they went afk to cook themselves a hotdog and watch a few minutes of American Idol. And a lot of times it seems like they did just that, because most of the time when I ask them questions about if they’ve asked so-and-so or if they want a WHM from my LS, I get no response. I imagine this is even worse for a JP player in the party, who might have a hard time phrasing questions or even be wondering if everything is being discussed in /tell or something. If you are building a party, COMMUNICATE WHAT YOU ARE DOING, so the rest of us know you’re actually searching for members every few minutes rather than sitting on the toilet reading Maxim for 30 mins straight. Same goes for once the party gets going–communicate if you’re going afk, try to give at least 15-20 mins. warning if you need to go (more if possible), ask how the party feels about a replacement (either for yourself or for someone else if you’re leader).

The lack of these simple, polite behaviors has gotten even worse over the past year and half, to the point where it’s nearly impossible to have a pleasant pick-up party experience due to rudeness and non-communication. And I see these behaviors from NA players almost exclusively–maybe I just have good luck with JP players, but they almost always communicate frequently if there’s an issue, and any time they have just left the party with no warning, it was a shitty party or someone was being rude.

I also thought the JP distaste for racist and sexist jokes was interesting, because I see a LOT of it and find it to be piggish and rude, as well. I play for escapism from the real world, so the constant bombardment of dick and fart jokes, comments about female anatomy (which I happen to have, thanks), racist jokes, and sexually explicit auto-translate jokes gets very old, very quickly, especially in /shout, /say, and party chat. If that sort of thing flies in your LS or on the BG forums, fine, because people have more of a choice in those matters, but please be respectful of the fact that not everyone wants to hear it everywhere they go in the game, and we shouldn’t have to block certain chat modes and/or blist people to avoid getting slapped in the face with immaturity and rudeness.

Bottom line, both cultures have cranky, snobby, rude people, but it’s a SHARED community, and therefore there’s no harm in actually being considerate and polite in “public” in the game, just like many of us do IRL. With the kind of rude, immature BS that I see being /shouted in Whitegate in English, it’s no wonder so many JP players think NA players are pigs, given that several people above expressed that most JPs can understand enough English to know when someone is being an asshole. Also, few things are more frustrating than me saying “Please cut it out, that’s offensive” to someone’s racist/sexist remark, and getting back “haha fuck u.” There will always be people who won’t listen and will do this crap anyway, but that’s no reason why YOU, personally, have to do it, too. The world is full of assholes because too many people think, “The world is full of assholes, so why should I try to be any different if they don’t?”

/end excessively long rant